unemployment. you don't agree? >> don't think they will turn around and vote for mitt romney. lou: i did not say that. >> the former head of the black caucus if obama was right the black caucus would march on washington. they are worse off today. lou: i was going to the politics of it which will be insignificant at most at the margin rather than the reality of it for black americans and what is being done to deal with, if you will, providing equal opportunity. >> why isn't the urban czar doing anything? >> this is where the lack of jobs hurts those who are the poorest. they don't get the work experience t who fall further ad further behind. it is really hurting the black mmunity.

neil: it'd be nice to see the station restored to prosperity all over. what a grumpy, grumpy guy. anyway, thank you for being here. appreciate it. thank you, robert. that is it for us tonight, join us tomorrow. good night from new york. >> as we are shelling out a lot of money, should welfare recipients have no shot at lotto money? welcome, everybody, i am liz macdonald in for neil cavuto. now looking to stop merchants from selling lottery tickets for those who are on bankrupt. money should go to only those who are nessary like food and shelter and not wasted on lottery scratch offs.

she is scratching her head and said this is one idea that should take off naturally. joining us as well. take it away, what you think it should take off naturally? >> it is for those on welfare. we are always there to help them out but when it starts becoming a habit and they spend the money we give them on things that aren't useful and not meant to go towards we have a right put restrictions on it. if there is better odds of winning the lottery, you can really use that excuse to say this could help somebody and pull them out of poverty, it might make a difference for a lot of people who hit hard times and need welfare have other problems so it is perfectly responsible to put restrictions, you can put restrictions on a lot of other things perfectly reasonable. liz: do they have the right to restrict it?

>> i don't know how you implement it. it doesn't sound like a bad idea, but you're restricting atlantic city and gambling? restricting them from buying food that is harmful to them? liz: you say how do you do it? >> at what point do you stop regulating behavior? you prevent things that otherwise normally happen from happening. liz: we already have a dozen states contemplating this, 14 states have enacted it. the president signed a law saying the state have to do better restricting welfare payouts and if they don't, they will lose federal funding. is this behind us? >> it is not about behavior, it is about transaction and if you're using food stamps there

is a way that you can only use these things buying wic items. we can do the same thing with lottery. what people want to do with the money outside of that program is a different idea. that we can restrict. liz: this creates a bureaucracy to crack down on merchants, is that fair? >> it is fair. it may not be realistic, but whatever is reasonable we have to remember where the money is coming from and the money is from the taxpayers in order to help people who are in trouble and help them get through that rough spot meaeaning that ha tho be some restrictions. we want the money to go to those things that are needed. help as many people as we can. i don't think it is about restricting behavior. i am a libertarian in that regard, but this has to do with

the money we are giving people who need it because they're in trouble and it is perfectly reasonable to put whatever standards there are to keep those restrictions in play. liz: there's a push to remove atm from casinos, bars and strip clubs, but yes i agree essentially hard-working taxpayer money shouldn't be going for things like booze and cigarettes and strip bars. i think the viewer has a real problem with that. your question is how do you stop it? >> so i can go to an atm around the corner, and go use it, it gets kind of ridiculous essentially setting up piece of legislation. it is so easy to avoid. >> you have to work hard to get there. if they want to do it, they

will. >> i do not buy an entire cake to eat. if i have the whole thing, i will eat the whole thing. it is the same concept. >> that is the point here, it is not about the behavior, people will find ways around things. identify atm machines, it is easy and states have done this to put in the database of which ones are not allowed. if you want to go in, let's put in an impediment. the big picture is the money saved from not buying the things that should be bought on food stam can go to help more people so in the long run are helping more people by cutting out waste and fraud. liz: do you think food stamps should go toward lottery tickets or booze or alcohol? do you think it should? >> some of those may be more

than others. strip club, not so much. alcohol and cigarettes, no. you should not be spending taxpayer money on that as well. as you pointed out, a large bureaucracy, but it will not do much good. liz: texas is considering restricting use for cigarettes and alcohol, how do you feel about that? >> texas is the model i was going to bring up. they began to advance using the technology and how they did this. they have been successful in 2005, and advanced it a little bit more. we can do this without another bureaucracy, and is already in place. liz: when did you see this shift occurred in the united states where they said you know what, i'm getting food stamps, i will spend it on whatever i want.

when do you think the shift happened? >> i don't know when it happened, but when you make it easy and open it up to people who don't need it, you create a culture of dependency that has been within my lifetime and certainly probably within the past 20 or 30 years, my lifetime is longer than that, once you start doing that and it becomes a way of life we live your entire life on food stamps or some sort of public assistance you're sort of defeating the purpose and that is what the taxpayers get concerned and a little bit irritated. liz: yes, the media is saying that big bad mean g.o.p. republicans want to hurt the working poor, restrict the payouts but to david's point, he is saying if you do it right, if you stop them from going to booze and cigarettes and alcohol, you really help the single working mom who has kids.

>> the point is incredibly well taken. from a logistical standpoint of how are we going to do it. love to hear david say that we can influence behavior. you want to impact transactions. are you going to start regulating what anybody can do? it is nobody's business. >> welfare food stamps, all of that is charity. you do that for people who are in need, they're not going to have come it is not regulating behavior, more about taking care of the money we are giving for people who are in need. liz: quickly. >> it is about accountability that comes down to are you accountable for what you do with taxpayer dollars.

liz: you will be up later in the show. next up even a president obama is in his last term, the obama campaign is far from over. how they are launching a full frontal assault on republicans and your privacy. but next, all the tax many money democrats got from their fiscal cliff win is all lost. cliff win is all lost. how they officemax knows... cliff win is all lost. how they ...tax time can be...well...taxing. so right now we'll give you... ...$10 off any turbo tax deluxe level software or higher! find thousands of big deals now... ...at officemax. have given way to sleeping. tossing and turning

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>> the agreement being worked on right now to further reduce the deficit by asking the wealthiest 2% of americans to pay higher taxes for the first time in two decades. liz: really, reduce the deficit? that did not take long. all of that new tax money drummed up by raising rates on the upper bracket is gone. congress spending it all in one boat.

says this is proof positive tax hikes alone won't be what fixes our debt. >> that is absolutely right. members of congress, particularly democrats getting reelected and help putting america back on a path for fiscal sanity. they will not be fiscal sanity. liz: it was just so ugly, whole group of taxpayers and dr. norse attacked, basically now resting the president whipping fastballs by the american people. clearly the american people are much smarter than that, what do you make of that? >> we know this from what the president has told us, every year he puts on a budget, every year we see it adds billions and billions over the next 10 years because it doesn't matter how much it taxes the american

people, this isn't about taxing thrich, it is growing the size of government. the only way to fund the spending is to try and get as much money out of the american people as possible and you cannot even get close trying to tax businesses, entrepreneurs, the people trying to drive growth in this country. you cannot pay for the budget through taxing them. going deeper into debt not dealing with the entitlement or the rest of the mandatory spending killing this economy. the first day back in session the senate voting on a bill that will increase spending by $60 billion, the house wasn't willing to pass an amendment that would offset by spending by strong revisions elsewhere. congress unwilling to pay for the spending and instead want to keep throwing money at a problem. liz: hurricane santa hit a part the u.s. the size of western

europe. it was devastating. not all the money will go toward helping out these victims, a lot of it will go to other spending on other items. do you find that to be a problem? all sorts of other things loaded into it. >> less than 50% of the money is actually going to disaster relief for the victims of sandy. sending money to fisheries in alaska. work on the roof of the smithsonian institute. the power of naming things, pet project underneath piggybacking off of disaster and this is why we are 15 to $16 trillion in debt. until the american people hold folks in congress and the president accountable, this is going to continue. we have to get to the crux of the problem. the problem is the american

people aren't paying attention in congress is getting away with murder. liz: you were an astute observer for what is going on in the political scene. as the american people sort of sense this but it hasn't been articulated. he pointed out to us it seems congress is playing fiscal cliff every three months. everything is now an emergency, a time the senate has not passed a budget bill in four years, at the same time there is this huge fight over pork. are we in a new era of deficit spending? >> you hit it right on the head. they don't want to commit this would increase spending. i don't want to see we are intent on bankrupting the country. they're using these circumstances to say throw money at a problem and we can't tell

you how we will fix it yet because we don't want to write it down, we noticed that bad. until we have lawmakerwho are unwilling to see the american people out of an endless trough of money, we're going to have a hard time fixing these problems and focus on the drivers of the dead. we did see the tea party was still try to get them to help spending. we're talking about the continued funding for the government, we might see some changes and hopefully we can expect some change. liz: you think about what is going on in washington, d.c., essentially look, the government can succeed in the economy. we will get economic growth from all of this spending. what do you make of all of that? >> i don't know how because we have so much uncertainty.

essentially congress is not being held to the fire. this is the greatest country on earth, we can fix these problems but right now very little interest in congress and not within the executive branch to do it because if we have growth we will have opportunity and many of the biggest problems will be fixed. liz: you to have been terrific, i am really pleased you're with us, thank you for your time. next up, the election is over but the privacy invasion is just beginning. how the obama campaign is pushing its agenda with your private information. plus, how can washington ever get a handle on spending if they don't think spending is the problem? >> i think i have set a number of times that deficit reduction is not a goal the capital one cash rewards card gives you 1% cash back on all purchases, plus a 50% annual bonus. and everyone but her likes 50% more cash,

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>> all that hard work was worth more than just the election. millions out at the polls in this election. today i'm proud our friends our friends and supporters are launching organizing for action. liz: the president's campaign just gained personal information on millions of voters and the critics fear they're using it to push the president's agenda for things like stricter gun laws and immigration reform. judge andrew napolitano with me. any legal problems with this? >> yes and no. the sale of a donor list in this era is accepted, acceptable and not unlawful.

if barack obama, the person, not president obama, decide it's to sell his campaign donor list name, address and how much money given, that information is already public so he is not invading anybody's privacy. he can sell it to group related to him and say can you give us some money? who wants to do educational commercials on television to tell people of the dangers of guns. the irs would stop for doing that, not bush in favor of special candidates, but want to educate the public about guns. liz: nobody had seen his new political landscape ever. this is a massive database using sophisticated computer tools,

cookies to tck where people were going to other websites. fortune 500 companies would want this database so the question is not just an army of door knockers, also privacy concerns and the voter doesn't even other personal information is now going to this nonprofit. is he skirting the rules? >> does not unlawful, not unethical. he is a lawyer. you may say it is not consistent with the spirit of the law but consistent with the letter of law. we all know the reason this isn't cited case said basically the two of us could form the donald and napolitano incorporated. the government cannot regulate us and cannot stop us from doing it. fast forward that instantly became a multibillion dollars international corporation, we could still do that, so can

these people form a nonprofit to do it? yes, they can. liz: they're getting a lot of information from the voter database. but the issue is that it is being given to nonprofit. nonprofit or legally restricted from advocating or pushing anything, basically an engaging. >> if it is a true nonprofit, it gets the money but people making contributions to it and those people deduct those contributions for income tax purposes on their own income tax, cannot support a candidate and cannot support legislation, but it could educate the public. it is a fine line the legislature doesn't recognize. there is no limitations. liz: the other thing is for the president is doing it, the law

says you cannot use federal money for causes, but he basically gave his database to anyone for his cause, is that right? >> i disagree with you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it. i am in favor of the second amendment. but he is not violating the law or the constitution. the money is not federal dollars and the names are not federal property. the names belong to his campaign, he can sell them or give them away. liz: what about the vote voter o says i was interested in getting the president elected how does it feel to know all the information, where i went to on the internet, what i voted for what issues matter to me are now a nonprofit entity even care about. it could be very interesting litigation if the president himself was a defendant. liz: what grounds could they put

a case? >> grounds of public privacy. liz: next up it is time for an exercise. go to your favorite news site, open a newspaper and try figuring out what you do not see. in two minutes, how washington is going full throttle on everything but ignoring one really important item. (announcer) at scottrade, our clients trade and invest exactly how they want. with scottrade's online banking, i get one view of my bank and brokerage accounts with one login... to easily move my money when i need to. plus, when i call my local scottrade office, i can talk to someone who knows how i trade. because i don't trade like everi'm with scottrade. me. (announcer) scottrade. awarded five-stars from smartmoney magazine.

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and now you're protected. liz: welcome back. check out what is grabbing the headlines today. the senate granting 11 million illegal immigrants a path to citizenship. meeting with police chiefs with gun control on their mind. is anything missing? white house press secretary tell you why. >> deficit-reduction is not a goal unto itself. it is sometimes the holy grail for some folks for the holy grail for this president is middle-class security, sustained economic growth. liz: capital classics on if ignoring the debt is something the white house is going to regret, former senators with me now.

what did you make of his comments? >> just hearing it now for the first time. getting the deficit under control is a middle clas middle. something to strengthen our economy long-term especially if you get after the bigger problem which we have been delaying for years, growing the long-term cost of social security and medicare. the deficit-reduction will produce a stronger economy. economic growth and fiscal solvency especially in a situation where we have plans of dollars of unfunded liabilities with these entitlement programs. liz: the middle-class issue is the only way to fix these things, think secret the white house is keeping from the middle-class households. what do you say to that? >> senator kerry has it exactly right.

if the economy is growing more rapidly than the debt, the site of the text doesn't particularly matter. thing is so distressing about the current situation is the growth in gdp is at a lower rate than the growth of the debt, that is the long-term problem we face in i if we don't solve that problem there isn't anything we can do to help the middle class and the lower class, anybody gets hurt when the economy is growing as slowly as this one is and we aren't focusing on that, wwe're instead on the extremes cutting the deficit, raising taxes, it is the growth of the economy that is the real answer to all these problems. liz: said we already have these debt commissioners. the debt commissioners already have this congress. but there is one school of thought that says he can't do any kind of medire or social security reform, you can only do it in odd years when there is no

election coming up. is that how constrained we are as a country right now? >> every year is an odd year in washington. here are the numbers, here is what this thing is so difficult. today's average worker pays $20,000, the cost for medicare and social security is $20,000. the average payment for every worker is about $7500 per year. the social security and medicare beneficiaries. over the next 18 years that number will go to $40,000 per beneficiary in the amount of taxes paid by every working individual is $20,000. so it becomes a huge middle-class problem. they do provide a benefit, but they're paid for largely by the middle-class, so you have this i think terrible challenge of trying to over long-term, i

think it would'v would have beer for the president to endorse the fix on social security. bipartisan agreement on something i think is very controversial and kind of a start to get after entitlement. liz: the question is can you really conceivably raise taxes? president george h. w. bush saw the collapse of the soviet union on his term, the fall of the berlin wall. what is remembered for? raising taxes when he said no new taxes. it is a shame for his legacy, but can anybody conceivably in this environment say we have to raise taxes on the middle class if they're in elected office? >> the reality is the present tax code is a disaster. yes, you can raise tax revenue and you can get people behind it if indeed you do it by saying

let's scrap huge chunks of the present tax code that make no sense in going the direction of a tax code that is competitive to the rest of the world the tax court hurts us, and frankly will bring down what i call the compliance tax. how many people do their own taxes now and pay millions if not billions of dollars in the country as a whole to get somebody else to figure this thing out. i would pay a higher rate if i knew i didn't have to pay the extra $2000 cut $2500 per year to the accountant to tell me what its supposed to be. it is a serious one. liz: texas have made more liars than a golf hats, but if you're going to do tax reform it took years, you have to start it now, right?

>> raise taxes on the middle class, the budget agreement did. starting january 1my own experience of a governor before is trying to balance a budget the last thing you want do is raise taxes first. and the easy stuff is done. it is not so much spending out of control, but if you are trying to bring spending down, it is hard to do. a lot easier to raise taxes on people over 400 spend more money which is basically what the agreement was. if you are trying to take spending down, you have to take medicare down. the biggest spending problem would have been the most important middle-class program. you will not get a round of applause. numbers will probably go down. liz: i will give you the final word. >> i will step up as republicans

and the president and the accusation he is letting spending get out of control as far as this christian i spending is probably too hard on him, but i will come down on him very hard for the fact he will not raise the question senator kerry has just raised which is mandatory spending. it is two-thirds of the federal budget, and everybody screams about have to control what is happening with one third, but the president in his inaugural set status quo as far as the mandatory spending is concerned. liz: here's proof taxes are a beach. how so-called fatcats are making a spring break for it. don't go away, we will be back after the break

liz: welcome back. wall street is weighing into getting out of new york. more are picking up and to florida. this really bad for business to the movie star on palm beach becoming the new wall street. what do you make of this? >> this is a trend happening all over the world. governments overspenng locally and nationally looking for ways to pay their bills. up in the tax rate in a very difficult matter causing people to leave the states and go to arizona of the world. florida, nevada. texas. the headlines with phil mickelson, he is looking to leave california because of his tax situation and move to nevada because tax rates.

liz: so will the williams sisters, right? >> including now the former president looking to leave france and go to great britain. the french actor looking to leave france and go to russia. liz: it is not just hedge funds leaving. i am seeing big powerhouses like goldman sachs setting up shop in low tax states. raymond james. can the states do businesses? >> i think you can do business anywhere, right? still not the point repertory environment is so burdensome the cost to have to lay out, they're looking as a business expense and saying what will make us profitable to the shareholders? they have to decide, they can go to the states to save that money because maybe they can hire more people, be they can open up

multiple offices and do more than they can in new york because the fact taxes are so high here. liz: let anybody get a wake-up call about this? >> we certainly hope so. this is how democracies fail. not to say that democracy will fail, but look at you by. and one that is out of our way, but they have zero taxes for 50 years. which attracts so much business to that particular center of the universe to do business. liz: downtown manhattan, my brother-in-law is a fireman, i come from a long line of firemen, they have said the reason flooded downtown because it is a landfill. coming in from london. so it is underwater.

they say to themselves another hurricane hits, we don't want to be flooded again. the federal reserve's offices got flooded. go ahead. does that factor into the decision making? it is not worth it, let's just get out of here. >> you had a choice, you can leave downtown. a lot of companies make the decision to stay because they will not leave because something like that would happen. some people would leave, some people would not. we have decided to stay. liz: did you stay for patriotic reasons? >> that, and we love downtown. it is smart. liz: are you thinking of leaving? we would love to set up another office in a low tax state. liz: always a joy to be with you.

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>> they have to pay back taxes, they have to learn english, they have to be able to understand and study our history, they have to get in line behind everyone else. they would be granted legal status but they get behind everyone else who has waited legally for a green card status. liz: senator john mccain

defending a bipartisan bill to o give 11 million illegal immigrants in the u.s. a path to citizenship, but texas republican congressman says this plan sounds a whole lot like amnesty. you don't like this bill. why? >> this is a plan we saw several years ago with the same individuals involved, so no surprise. they favored amnesty before, and they favored amnesty now. says quite frankly it will save taxpayers billions of dollars because they will have to fit the bill going to be benefits going to these. it will cost american worker thousands of jobs competing with individuals who they haven't had to compete with before and will drive down thei wages and encourage illegal immigration because people will figure it will be eligible for the honesty. we ought to be enforcing immigration laws and not rewarding those who break them.

liz: is it that this is sically amnesty 2.0, the president reagan plan? what do you make of that? >> that is exactly what this is. they're relying upon this administration which has not been enforcing immigration laws so they decide they're going to enforce immigration laws and the provisions will always be tied up in court meanwhile amnesty will be implemented immediately. this may be good for citizens of other countries but it is not good for american taxpayers and not good for american workers. liz: a path to citizenship. saying i play by the rules, my family were immigrants, my family did it legally and not essentially say this path of citizenship, is the fear we have 11 million or more immigrants in here, thinking i could open the door to even more illegal

immigrants coming in the door? >> right. is it a little bit of an insult to the legal immigrants in our country and would-be immigrants waiting to come in because basically saying you play by the rules, we waited our turn and instead we will reward individuals who caught in the front of the line, why should anybody have to wait in line again, why shouldn't they, the country illegally? it will encourage illegal immigration and individuals figure they can get in and get rewarded and get statements added jobs, why would they continue coming here illegally? i see it's actually encouraging illegal immigration. what message does it send to the individuals playing by the rules? they should have violated the rules of these individuals who are going to get rewarded.

liz: that is certainly a concern. i guess that's part of the argument. what is interesting is that jobs inside of it. the illegal immigrant takes the low wage jobs, but maybe americans don't want. should that even be part of the debate? we see illegal immigrants not so much coming to california and new york, they're coming into stingy states like arkansas, tennessee, utah. they coming here for the jobs americans don't love, how does that factor in the debate here? >> we do have to have a guestworker program. the agricultural industry, but that is different to everybody in the country here legally. we need some targeted programs, but to allow individuals to come iin and compete with unemployed americans, for example to limit rate among hispanic is way above

the national average. why do we want to allow individuals to come in and compete with individuals who can't find jobs, what we want millions of people to suddenly get legalized status? almost every credible study shows wages are down about $2000 because of competition with illegal immigrants and now saying we will legalize millions of more. yes, a guestworker program to demonstrate the need for individuals whose work we embrace but notche nightmares of individuals who unnecessarily compete. liz: thank you so much for your time, really pleasure to have you on the show. next up, what is worse than worn lip-synching at the president's inauguration? how about raising taxes?

liz: so senator chuck schumer wants apology from beyoncé and one that is not lip-synched. but says taxpayers who should be asking chuck schumer for an apology for things like raising taxes while cutting federal entitlements and pushing a bill to help send the victims but denying it is filled with park. david, what did you make of this? >> it is a joke. who cares if beyoncé apologizes? if he feels embarrassed, make a private phone call. they have got her number. why are we not dealing with the issues? the head of the democratic policy committee. let me ask america where the policies wneed on the economy,

the economy that we need in this country. liz: what did you make of this? >> the people in new york have spoken, so while you're outrag outraged, those in new york clearly are not. he is doing the will of the people who elected him. >liz: are you mad beyoncé lip-synched? >> could not care less. but the guys from milli vanilli came in and actually defended her and said with second, everybody is making a big deal out of this. but do you really want the guy from milli vanilli defending you? >> chuck schumer owes them an apology. he is right, he organized the inaugural events, he hired her, she can go up and lip-synched. thit is common at an event witha

larger performance involved, you're not paying to see them, t she did not do that. the one thing that worked, if there is pay involved, they should withhold her pay and do that with other performances in the future. look, we know this works because the host threatened to withhold the pay of the senate if they didn't come up with a budget, so we have the rest of them coming up with a budget for the first time because we threatened to withhold their pay. that is how you do it. liz: that is right. go ahead, david. >> when we get back to the budget, why won't they do a budget? they have already spent the money, the new tax bill, and

again, what do we see coming out of this senate? you go and debate bills, vote on them. speaker every time i checked republicans are filibustering anything they don't want to debate they cut off the debate. >> i think beyoncé getting her pay was held to be the equal a equivalent of you or me getting $0.05 withheld. liz: what is worse? i hear what you're saying about the filibuster. >> vote against it. i was against it, worked in the senate when the republicans were in charge, i hated a filibuster. between what all voters vote for.

let the republicans do the business. >> i disagree, this is part of our checks and balances read when it comes to the point when you like it, the filibuster is great, when it doesn't, i think getting things done in washington and spending our money and people trying to throw pork, all of this stuff should be very, very difficult to do. this is how our founders set it up. they're supposed to be all energetic and crazy. supposed be arrogant and they never disappoint. this is part of the process. we need to make it a simple majority vote. we don't need a filibuster.